[Show: FOX SPECIAL REPORT WITH BRIT HUME> [Date: October 21, 2002> [Time: 18:18> [Tran: 102103cb.254> [Type: Show> [Head: Interview with Juan Williams> [Sect: News; International> [Byline: Brit Hume, Eric Shawn> [Guest: Juan Williams> [Spec: Politics; Elections; Race Relations; War; George W. Bush; Middle East> HUME: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice had been scheduled to address the annual fund raising dinner for the African aid organization Africare. But Rice, like her administration colleague, Colin Powell, has fallen into disfavor with the singer and actor Harry Belafonte, who was to be honored at that dinner. She has now been ceremoniously disinvited. It is the latest chapter in a saga that began with Belafonte likened Powell, and later Rice as well, to plantation slaves. Fox News correspondent Eric Shawn reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ERIC SHAWN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems an unlikely, if not downright offensive metaphor: comparing the most prominent African-American official in the country to a slave. But that's what singer and activist Harry Belafonte has said of Secretary of State Colin Powell. HARRY BELAFONTE, SINGER/ACTIVIST: There's an old saying in the days of slavery. There are those slaves who lived on the plantation and there were those slaves who lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master to exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him. That gave you privilege. Colin Powell's permitted to come into the house of the master. COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think it's unfortunate that Harry found it necessary to use that kind of a reference. I don't know what reference he would use to white cabinet officers who were in the house of the master. SHAWN: Belafonte also accused national security adviser Condoleezza Rice of turning her back on black people. This weekend, she responded by saying she doesn't need Belafonte to teach her what it means to be black. Jesse Jackson also jumped in, telling a black church Sunday that Powell is not -- quote -- "on our team." NIGER INNIS, CONG. OF RACIAL EQUALITY: The Democratic race-baiting machine is in full motion now. SHAWN: Niger Innis, of the Congress of Racial Equality, says the politically correct crowd views black Republicans as sell-outs, not successes. INNIS: They believe that for you to be authentically black, you have to tout their line. And if you don't tout their line, then you should be disciplined. And the way they discipline you is by calling you names and chastising you. Not by challenging you on policy, not by asking for a full debate and discussion on these issues. But to just throw names and throw stones at you. SHAWN: Others say it's demeaning to think that any racial or ethnic group would think alike. ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO HOST: Double standard? It is such a double standard that Stevie Wonder could see this double standard. SHAWN (on camera): Belafonte has said the remarks were not meant to be personal, but criticisms of the Bush administration. However, long after slavery's end, it seems still some find it hard to break the chains of race. In New York, Eric Shawn, Fox News. (END VIDEOTAPE) HUME: You do not have to be in government to experience the sting of the civil rights establishment's outrage at successful African-Americans who do not always agree with its positions. One leading black journalist defended Clarence Thomas during his confirmation hearings to the Supreme Court, sharply criticized former Washington, D.C. Mayor Marion Barry, who did jail time on drug charges, and has also been critical at times of the family of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. His name is Juan Williams, and he joins me now. Juan, welcome. JUAN WILLIAMS, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO: Good to be with you, Brit. HUME: Talk to me a bit, if you can, about the experiences you've had. I mean, I remember you were writing a column for "The Washington Post" back in the late '80s, when Clarence Thomas was nominated. Yes, the late '80s. And you defended him on a number of grounds. Not all, but some. What happened? WILLIAMS: Oh, well, gosh. Immediately there was a great deal of calls to my desk at "The Washington Post" at the time, saying, you know, what do you have on Clarence Thomas? I said, well, I don't have anything on Clarence Thomas. And then later I wrote about a body of knowledge, which was that Clarence Thomas was someone who had come along in this town, who had developed his way, found his way in the Reagan administration; was not always the most conservative, was not someone that you could easily pillory as some sort of stick figure, but was rather an intellectual. And that, of course, then brought down all the heavens on me, in terms of the civil rights establishment -- I think driven by people who said, you know what, we don't like Clarence Thomas' story, as being sort of this young black man from Georgia who made his way up. We don't like the idea that Juan Williams at "The Washington Post" would lend his credibility to this story. And therefore, one way to get at Thomas was to attack the messengers. In that case, to attack me. HUME: So what happened? WILLIAMS: Well, people then attacked me. Once he got into trouble with Anita Hill, and there were all sorts of questions about my behavior -- have you told any flirtatious jokes, who have you flirted with at the paper? All sorts of accusations. I mean, it just felt like the world had crumbled in on my head. I couldn't believe that so many of my friends who were in the newsroom at the time -- really, it was as if, well, you are no longer truly black. You don't belong and have the right to hold that seat. As a matter of fact, I was, at that time, doing "Crossfire" for CNN. And I was then saying, listen, I think a lot of these charges against Thomas are ill-based. And at the time, CNN said, well, you can't sit on the left side here and argue from a black perspective because you're not holding the official black position. So, you know, you can't, literally, appear on this show and do your job as the host on the left. HUME: On the issue. WILLIAMS: Yes. HUME: Wow. Now, talk about the days of Marion Barry, who was a mayor here on several terms. You were critical of him at times, correct? WILLIAMS: At times. Look, there was no question about the corruption that occurred during Barry's tenure here. But I remember people would say to me, Juan, why are you so hard on Barry? You're working for this mostly white newspaper. You're coming across as a conservative. Everybody in the nation has heard of "The Washington Post," people all over the world hear and read about "The Washington Post." And here you are being critical of a fellow black man. That's not the position that you should be taking. I mean, Barry came up to "The Post" at one time and said, you know, we protested and demonstrated to get black reporters at "The Washington Post." You end up hiring Juan Williams, to Katharine Graham. You know, the idea was that somehow... HUME: She was then the publisher. WILLIAMS: Yes, then the publisher of the paper. That, if you don't toe the line, if you are not in keeping with the agenda of this black leadership, then you're a bad guy. Another time I was in a debate with Jesse Jackson on Black Entertainment Television, BET, about one of the trips he took overseas, his dealings with some of the Arab leaders, and said he'd improperly taken money from some of these leaders for these trips. And he said, you know, I should take you out in the parking lot and punch your lights out. I mean, that kind of attitude and, of course, the stigma that attaches to it, that you are not in line with the Jesse Jacksons, the Marion Barrys. And, of course, it attached in terms of the journalism, in terms of who will talk to me. When I was doing my book on Thurgood Marshall, who you automatically think of as a great black man... HUME: That's right. You wrote a biography, called "Thurgood Marshall: An American Revolutionary." It was very well reviewed. You worked on it very years. I would have imagined that the civil rights establishment figures would have appreciated this, because Thurgood Marshall was, after all, a leader, a pioneer and a pillar of that establishment. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. But again, the way that it was viewed was, we're not going to cooperate with Juan Williams for anything he does because we can't count on him to tell the story the way we want it told in the first place. But secondly, what was very disappointing to me was, even to the point the NAACP legal defensemen, their current leadership, said, we're not going to open our files, make anything available, just so you can do your scholarship necessary to do an accurate and complete study. HUME: Thurgood Marshall was, for much of his career, the lead attorney and head... WILLIAMS: Of the NAACP legal defense fund, before he became a federal judge solicitor general, and then Supreme Court justice. HUME: Were you ultimately able to get access to that material? WILLIAMS: Absolutely. It took me many more years. I had to go around it, find it in other repositories, and other people were very kind to me in order to make it happen. Maybe the most kind of all was Thurgood Marshall, who really couldn't understand what was going on with his old organization. In much the way that it's ironic that he, as sort of one of the true leaders in this movement, could never understand why people were so fascinated with a Jesse Jackson or a Lewis Farrakhan. Another point, you know, if I point out the people Farrakhan talks about taking trips on spaceships, people say to me, why do you have to talk about that? There's a bigger issue here. I say, wait a minute, doesn't that speak to exactly who we're dealing with at this moment? Why are you giving all this media attention to someone who's talking about spaceships? HUME: Now, in terms of how you're regarded today, I'm sure people who watch us on Fox News, who see you and me on Fox News Sunday panel, and you and I duel over issues sometimes. And they would take it that, well, I must be a conservative and you're obviously a liberal. How are you regarded among... WILLIAMS: I find it so interesting. Literally, it's like a Rorschach test. You know, in the white community, I think most times people say, oh, you're a liberal, especially on Fox. But in the black community, I'm seen as a black conservative. And a black conservative one who challenges black leadership, one who does not always abide by the terms of traditional positions. HUME: And this is exactly what Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rices are running into. WILLIAMS: I think they're really up against this, especially in terms of these midterm races, where you see the Democratic machine trying to get out the vote among black voters. And they're very concerned that in fact Rice and Powell will act to bring black voters to Mr. Bush. HUME: Juan, it's good to have you. WILLIAMS: Thank you. ------ Copy: Content and Programming Copyright 2002 Fox News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2002 FDCH e-Media (Federal Document Clearing House, Inc. -eMediaMillWorks, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, Inc.'s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.